Stanislav Grof
interviewing Dr. Albert Hofmann at the Esalen Institute in Big Sur, California,
1984.
Grof: It is a great pleasure and
honor for me this morning to welcome and introduce Dr. Albert Hofmann, to the
extent to which he needs introduction at all. As you all know, he became world
famous for his discovery of a compound that is probably the most controversial
substance ever developed by man, diethylamide of lysergic acid, or LSD-25. When
LSD made its entry into the world of science, it became overnight a sensation
because of its remarkable effects and also unprecedented potency. It seemed to
hold tremendous promise in the research of the nature and etiology of
schizophrenia, as an extraordinary therapeutic agent, as a very unconventional
tool for training of mental health professionals, and as a source of
inspiration for artists.
Dr. Hofmann’s
discovery of LSD generated a powerful wave of interest in brain chemistry and,
together with the development of tranquilizers, was directly responsible for
what has been called the “golden age of psychopharmacology.” And then his
prodigious child became a “problem child.” This extraordinarily promising
chapter in psychology and psychiatry was drastically interrupted by
unsupervised mass self-experimentation and the ensuing repressive
administrative, legislative, and political measures, as well as the chromosome
scare and the abuse by the military and secret police. But I firmly believe
that this chapter is far from being closed. Whether or not LSD research and
therapy as such will return into modern society, the discoveries that
psychedelics made possible have profound revolutionary implications for our
understanding of the psyche, human nature, and nature of reality. And these new
insights are here to stay as an important part of the emerging scientific world
view of the future.
But before we start
this interview, I would like to add a little personal note. Dr. Hofmann’s
discovery of LSD and his work, in general, have had a profound impact on my own
professional and personal life, for which I am immensely grateful. My first LSD
session in 1956, when I was a beginning psychiatrist, was a critical landmark
and turning point for me and since then my life has never been the same. So
this interview gives me the opportunity to express my deep appreciation and
gratitude to Dr. Hofmann for the influence he has had on my life.
What I would like
to ask you first has something to do with the way people tend to qualify your
discovery of the psychedelic effects of LSD. It is usually referred to as a
pure accident, implying that there was nothing more involved in this entire
matter than your fortuitous intoxication. But I know from you that the history
was somewhat more complex than. Can you clarify this for us?
Hofmann: Yes, it is true that my
discovery of LSD was a chance discovery, but it was the outcome of planned
experiments and these experiments took place in the framework of systematic
pharmaceutical, chemical research. It could better be described as serendipity. (Dr. Hofmann is using here a
word coined in the eighteenth century by Horace Walpole after his tale Three
Princes of Serendip – which is another name for Ceylon - who made during their
travels fortunate discoveries why pursuing other things). That means that you
look for something, you have a certain plan, and then you find something else,
different, that may nevertheless be useful.
And that is exactly
what happened with LSD. I had developed a method for the synthesis of lysergic
acid amides in the context of a systematic study, the purpose of which was to synthesize natural ergot
alkaloids. At that time, in the 1930s, a new ergot alkaloid had been discovered
which is named ergometrine, or ergonovine; it is the real active principle of ergot. The
presence of this alkaloid in ergot is the reason why it has been used in
obstetrics to stop uterine bleeding and as an oxytocic to stimulate the
muscular activity of the uterus. And this substance turned out to be an amide
of lysergic acid.
Until the late
1930s, it had not been possible to prepare such substances in the laboratory. I
discovered a technical procedure that made it possible and was able to achieve
partial synthesis of ergonovine; I then also used this procedure to prepare
other lysergamides. First came the modifications of ergonovine and one of these
modifications, methergine, a homologue of ergonovine, is today the leading
medicament in obstetrics to stop post partum bleeding. I also used this
procedure to prepare not so close derivatives of ergonovine, more different than methergine. And one of these compounds
was LSD-25, lysergic acid diethylamide. The plan, the intention I had, was to prepare
an analeptic, a circulatory and breathing stimulant.
Grof: Was there some indication in
the early animal experiments that LSD could be an activating agent?
Hofmann: No, I made LSD because it is
an analog of coramine, which is diethylamide of nicotinic acid. Because of the structural
relationship between LSD and the ring of the nicotinic acid, I hoped to get an
analeptic. But our pharmacologist concluded that lysergic acid diethylamide did not have any clinically
interesting properties and suggested that it be dropped out of research. That
happened in the year 1938. But all along, I had a strange feeling that we
should again test this substance on a broader scale. Then, five years later, in
1943, I finally decided to synthetize another sample of LSD. At the end of the synthesis, something
very strange happened. I got into a dreamlike condition, in which all of my
surrounding was transforming. My experience of reality had changed and it was
rather agreeable. In any case, I left the laboratory, went home, lay down and
enjoyed a nice dreamlike state which then passed away.
Grof: Did you immediately suspect
that this was an intoxication by the drug you were working with?
Hofmann: I had the suspicion that it
was caused by something from the laboratory, but I believed that it could have
been caused by the solvent I had used at that time. I had used dichlorethylene, something like chloroform, in
the very final state of preparation. So, the next day in the laboratory, I
tried the solvent and nothing happened. Then I considered the possibility that
it might have been the substance I had prepared. But it did not make any sense.
I knew I was very careful and my work was very clean. And, of course, I did not
taste anything.
But I was open to
the fact that, maybe, some trace of the substance had in some way passed into
my body. That, maybe, a drop of the solution had come on my fingertips and,
when I rubbed my eyes, it got into the conjunctival sacs. But, if this compound
was the reason of this strange experience I had, then it had to be very, very
active. That was clear from the very beginning because I had not ingested
anything. I was puzzled and decided to conduct some experiments to clear up
this thing, to find out what was the reason for that extraordinary condition I
had experienced.
Being a cautious
man, I started this experiment with only 0.25 milligrams (the ergot alkaloids
are usually administered in milligram dosages). That is an extremely low dose
and I expected it would not have any activity. I thought I would increase very
cautiously the quantity of LSD in subsequent experiments to see if any of the
dosages were active. It turned out that when I ingested this quarter of a
milligram, I had taken a very strong, a very high dosage of a very, very active
compound. I got into a strange state of consciousness. Everything in my
surroundings changed - the colors, the forms, and also the feeling of my ego
had changed. It was very strange! And I became very anxious that I had taken
too much and I asked my assistant to accompany me home. At that time we had no
car available and we went home by bicycle.
Grof: Many people who have taken
LSD, particularly in such a high dose,
have a lot of respect for that ride. They realize what it is to ride a
bicycle in that kind of a condition.
Hofmann: During this trip home on the bicycle - it was about four
kilometers - I had the feeling that I could not move from the spot. I was
cycling, cycling, but the time seemed to stand still. In my report afterward, I
mentioned this trip on the bicycle to show that LSD affected the experience of
time, as an example of the distortion of the sense of time. Then the bicycle
trip became a characteristic aspect of the LSD discovery. As we arrived home, I
was in a very, very bad condition. It was such a strange reality, such a
strange new universe which I had entered, that I believed I had now become
insane. I asked my assistant to call the doctor. When the doctor arrived, I
told him that I was dying. I had the feeling that my body had absolutely no
feeling any more. He tested me and shook his head, because everything was OK.
Then, nevertheless,
my condition became worse and worse. When I was lying on my couch, I had the
feeling that I had already died. I believed, I had a sense that I was out of my
body. It was a terrifying experience! The doctor did not give me anything, but
I drank a lot of milk, as an unspecific detoxicant. After about six hours, the
experience of the outer world started to change. I had the feeling of coming
back from a very strange land, home to our everyday reality.
And it was a very,
very happy feeling and a very beautiful experience. After some time, with my
eyes closed, I began to enjoy this wonderful play of colors and forms, which it
really was a pleasure to observe. Then I went to sleep and the next day I was
fine. I felt quite fresh, like a newborn. It was an April day and I went out
into the garden and it had been raining during the night. I had the feeling
that I saw the earth and the beauty of nature as it had been when it was
created, at the first day of creation. It was a beautiful experience! I was
reborn, seeing nature in quite a new light.
Grof: We have seen this kind of
sequence, the death-rebirth process,
very regularly in psychedelic sessions. Many people link this experience
to the memory of their biological birth. I wanted to ask you, if during the time
when it was happening, it was just an encounter with death or if you also had
the feeling that you were involved in a biological birthing process?
Hofmann: No, the first phase was a
very terrifying experience, because I did not know if I would recover. First, I
had the feeling that I was insane and then I had the feeling I was dying. But
then, when I was coming back, I had of course the feeling of rebirth.
Grof: But there was no connection to
actual memory of biological birth.
Hofmann: No.
Grof: When did you become aware that
this drug could be of significance to psychiatry?
Hofmann: Immediately! I knew
immediately that this drug would have importance for psychiatry but, at that
time, I would never have believed that this substance could be used in the drug
scene, just for pleasure. For me it was a deep and mystical experience and not
just an everyday pleasurable one. I never had the idea that it could be used as
a pleasure drug. And then, soon after my experience, LSD came into the hands of
psychiatrists. The son of my boss at that time, Dr. Werner Stoll, who was
working at the Burghoeltzli Psychiatric Institute in Zurich, conducted the
initial experiments with LSD.
First, we checked
it in our laboratory, because the head of the Chemical Department, Professor
Stoll, and the head of the Pharmacology Department, Professor Rothlin, said
that what I was telling them was not possible. They told me: “You must have
made a mistake when you measured the dosage. It is impossible that such a low
dosage could have an effect.” And Professor Rothlin then made an experiment
with two of his assistants. They took only one fifth of what I have taken, 50
micrograms, to check it out. And even then, they had a full-blown experience!
Then it was clear
that LSD was a substance with the activity of a quite new dimension and the
samples of LSD were sent to Dr. Stoll in Zurich. He conducted the first
fundamental study exploring the use of LSD in clinical conditions. He first
gave it to normal persons and he himself took also 50 micrograms. His classical
description of the LSD experience appeared in his publication that was
published in 1947. He used LSD also in schizophrenics and other categories of
patients and he outlined most of the uses that LSD could have had in psychiatry.
He also suggested, as one of the very important possibilities of the use of
LSD, that psychiatrists should use the substance in self-experiments for
training purposes. That they themselves should use the substance to enter and
explore the world of changed consciousness, the world of their patients. He did
it himself and he gave an example of such a procedure.
And it was also
Doctor Stoll who described in his pioneering paper how LSD could be used as an
adjunct to psychoanalysis. Not as a medicament, that would just be administered
to the patient, but as a tool to intensify and deepen psychotherapy. This was
based on the fact that LSD showed the potential to bring into consciousness
forgotten or repressed memories. And if these were of a traumatic nature and
had been the cause of mental disturbances, this had important therapeutic
consequences. It also increased suggestibility and improved the contact between
the patient and the psychiatrist. And based on these effects, Dr. Stoll
suggested that LSD could be a very useful adjunct to psychoanalysis.
Grof: He really outlined the three
directions that became fundamental in the early psychedelic research. The first
of these was the concept of “model psychosis” – using LSD as a means of
creating a laboratory model for studying schizophrenia. The second one was the
suggestion that LSD could be employed as a training tool for psychiatrists and
psychologists. And the third direction was to explore the potential of LSD as
an adjunct to psychotherapy or as a therapeutic tool.
So, this was, in a
nutshell, the story of the discovery of LSD. And then we come to the next
important chapter of your psychedelic research, the isolation and
identification of the active principles of the magic mushrooms of the Mazatec Indians
in Mexico. How long after the discovery of the psychedelic effects of LSD did
Gordon Wasson contact you?
Hofmann: For the
first ten years, LSD was my “wonder child;” we had a positive reaction from
everywhere in the world. About two thousand publications about it appeared in
scientific journals and everything was fine. Then, at the beginning of the
1960s, here in the United States, LSD became a drug of abuse. In a short time,
this wave of popular use swept the country and it became drug number one. It
was then used incautiously and people were not prepared and informed about its
deep effects. And then all kinds of things happened, which caused LSD to become
an infamous drug. It was a troublesome time! Telephones, panic, and alarm! This
had happened, that had happened…. it was a breakdown. Instead of a “wonder
child,” LSD suddenly became my “problem child.”
And then, one day
in the 1960s, I saw in the newspaper a notice that an American amateur
mycologist and ethnologist, Gordon Wasson, and his wife had discovered
mushrooms, which were used in a ritual way by the Indians. These mushrooms
seemed to contain a hallucinogen that produced an LSD-like effect. Of course, I
did not know who these ethnologists were, but I certainly would have been
interested in investigating these mushrooms. Then, I got a letter from
professor Heim, a French mycologist from the Sorbonne in Paris. Mr. Wasson and
his wife, who had discovered this very old Mexican mushroom cult and had
published information about the ritual use of these mushrooms, had sent him
some botanical samples of the plant. They had asked him if he could examine the
mushrooms and make precise botanical investigation.
After Professor Heim completed the basic
botanical work, he tried to isolate the active principle from the mushrooms,
but he did not succeed. Gordon Wasson had also initiated chemical studies of
the mushrooms in the United States, at the University of Delaware, but this
work had not brought any positive results either. And so professor Heim, who
knew about the work we had done with LSD in Basel, asked me in his letter if I
would be interested to take on this research. So, in this way, LSD attracted
the mushrooms to come into my laboratory.
At first, we had
only 200 or 300 grams of these mushrooms. We tested them in animals, since we
had some experience with LSD and we knew what kind of pharmacological activity
could be expected from such psychoactive principles. We did not find anything
and our pharmacologist suggested that the mushrooms probably were not active at
all, that they were the wrong mushrooms, or that they had lost their activity
when they had been dried in Paris. In any case, to clear the problem, I decided
to make a self-experiment. I took a dosage that was mentioned in the prescriptions in the old chronicles
- 2.4 grams of dried mushrooms - and I had a full-blown LSD experience.
And it was very
strange. I took it in the laboratory and I had to go home, because I had again
taken a dosage that was rather high. At home, everything looked Mexican - the
rooms and surroundings - although I had never been in Mexico before. I thought
that I must have imagined all that, because I knew that the mushrooms had come
from Mexico. For example, I had a colleague, a doctor who supervised me for this
experiment. When he checked my blood pressure, I saw him as an Aztec. He had a
German face, but for me he became an Aztec priest and I had the feeling he
would open my chest and take out my heart. It was really an absolutely Mexican
experience!
After a few hours,
I came back from the Mexican landscape and I knew that we had not used the
right tests. The work with animals would not have taken us anywhere; we had to
test the activity of all the fractions in humans. And from then on, my
colleagues and myself tested personally all the extracts we made from the
mushrooms. We extracted them with different solvents and used fractionating
procedures to isolate the active principles.
Grof: How many steps did it take you
from the beginning to the end to identify chemically the active principles?
Hofmann: We had about five or six
steps. Finally, we ended up with a very small quantity, several milligrams of
concentrated material that was still amorphous. And we could use it to make a
paper chromatogram. It turned out that the substance was concentrated in four
phases. We cut the paper chromatogram and four of my colleagues and myself ate
these fractions. One of the fractions turned out to be active. Then we could
make some tests with this fraction, crystallize it, get the color reaction
specific for it, and so on.
Finally, we were able to isolate the active principles and it turned out
to be two substances, which I named psilocybine and psilocine, because they had been
isolated from Psilocybe mexicana. Most of these magic mushrooms used by the Indians
belong to the genus Psilocybe.
Then, when we had
these substances, we sent them for pharmacological testing. It turned out that
they were about hundred times less active than LSD, but still very active. It
means that about 5 to 10 milligrams is the active dose. Later I received a
letter from Professor Moore in Delaware, who congratulated us for solving the
problem of the mushrooms. He and his team had worked more than a year trying to
isolate the active principles from these mushrooms and were not able to do it.
They had tested all their extracts in animals, all kinds of animals, even fish,
but were not able to find a lead. The reason for our success was that we used
our own team for testing the fractions and did not rely on animal experiments.
Professor Moore then sent me the rest of these mushrooms; after all this work,
he still had about 12 kilograms left.
Grof: What was the overall time that
it took you to identify the active alkaloids?
Hofmann: About half a year. And having
chemically identified these substances, we were then able to synthetize them in
the laboratory. And we were able to use for it the basic materials we had on
hand from the LSD research, namely derivatives of tryptamine which could now be
used for the synthesis of psilocybine and psilocine. Gordon Wasson, who was a banker by profession
and an amateur mycologist, was very impressed by the results. He did not know
what active principles meant; for him it was the mushrooms that were the active
agent. And he came to Basel to visit us and I showed him these active
principles in a pure crystalline form. It turned out that only about 0.5% of
the mushrooms represents the active principles. Instead of 5 grams of the
mushrooms you can take 25 milligrams of psilocybine. Gordon was quite fascinated
to see these crystals and then he said: “Oh, by the way, there is another magic drug the Indians
use which has not yet been studied scientifically. It is called ololiuqui.
Grof: And so began another important
chapter of your research.
Hofmann: Yes. I went with Gordon Wasson
to Mexico to study the other magic plant materials, ololiuqui (morning glory seeds) and Salvia divinorum, a new Salvia species that the Indians also
used like the mushrooms. And we visited Maria Sabina, the curandera or the shaman woman who had
given the mushrooms to the Wassons. They were probably the first white people
who ever ingested the mushrooms during the sacred ceremony. It was already late
summer or beginning of fall and there were no more mushrooms. We explained to
Maria Sabina that we had isolated the spirit of the mushrooms and that it was
now in these little pills. She was fascinated and agreed to make a ceremony for
us.
And to participate
in the ceremony, you always have to have a reason.
The mushroom ceremony is a
consultation, like going to a doctor or a psychiatrist if you have some
problems. And Gordon told Maria Sabina: "I left New York three weeks ago
and my daughter had to go to the hospital to have a child. I don't know what
happened with her. Can the mushroom tell me what happened with my
daughter?" So that was the reason they made a ceremony for us. It involved
Maria Sabina, her daughters, and other shaman colleagues and it was a beautiful
ceremony.
Grof: I understand that, on this
occasion, Maria Sabina gave you the official “seal of approval,” that after
having taken the pills, she actually confirmed that their effects were
identical to those of the magic mushrooms.
Hofmann: Yes. I gave her for the
ceremony tablets of the synthetic psilocybine. I knew that she used a certain
number of mushrooms and I assessed the corresponding quantity of tablets. We
used them and it was really a full-blown wonderful ceremony which lasted till
the morning. When we left, Maria Sabina told us that these tablets really
contained the spirit of the mushrooms. I gave her quite a bottle of them and
she said: "I can now also perform the ceremonies during the times when we
have no more mushrooms."
Grof: And how did you now move from
your mushroom research to the work with ololiuqui?
Hofmann: I got the supply of ololiuqui, seeds of a certain morning
glory family, from Gordon Wasson. Gordon got them from a Zapotec Indian who had
collected them for him. These seeds, like the mushrooms, were used in
ceremonies for a kind of magic healing and for divination. We were able to
isolate the active principles responsible for the effect of these seeds and I
was quite astonished to find out that these seeds contained as the active
principles monoamid and hydroxyethylamid of lysergic acid and a bit of ergonovine. These were derivatives of
lysergic acid which I had on my shelf through my studies with LSD. I initially
could not believe that this was possible, because the lysergic acid derivatives
I had worked with before were produced by a fungus.
Grof: And the morning seeds come
from flowering plants that belong botanically to an entirely different
category.
Hofmann: Yes, these plants belong to
two very different stages of evolution in the plant kingdom, which are quite
remote from each other. And it is absolutely unusual to find the same chemical
products in quite different place of plant evolution.
Grof: I have heard that, at the
beginning, your colleagues actually accused you that you must have contaminated
your samples from the ololiuqui research by the products of your LSD work that you
kept in your laboratory. Knowing how meticulous your work is, that was quite an
outrageous accusation!
Hofmann: That is true. I gave the first
report on this work in 1960, at the International Conference on Natural
Products in Sydney. When I presented my results, my colleagues shook their
heads and they said: “It is impossible that you find the same active principles
in a quite different section of the plant kingdom. You are working with all
kinds of lysergic acid derivatives; you must have mixed up something and that
is the reason.” But finally, of course, they checked it and confirmed our
results.
That was the
closing of a kind of magic circle. I started with the lysergic acid amides - methergine and LSD - and LSD attracted
the mushrooms. The mushrooms then brought the ololiuqui and the work with ololiuqui took me back to lysergic acid
amides. My magic circle!
Grof: Have you actually tried the ololiuqui. yourself?
Hofmann: Yes, I did. But, of course, it
is about ten times less active; to get a good effect, you need one to two
milligrams.
Grof: And what was that experience
like?
Hofmann: The experience had some strong
narcotic effect, but at the same time there was a very strange sense of
voidness. In this Void, everything looses the meaning. It is a very mystical
experience.
Grof: Usually, when you read the
psychedelic literature there is a distinction being made between the so-called
natural psychedelics, such psilocybine, psilocine, mescaline, harmaline, or ibogaine, which are produced by various
plants (and this applies even more to psychedelic plants themselves) and
synthetic psychedelics that are artificially produced in the laboratory. And
LSD, which is semisynthetic and thus a substance that was produced in the
laboratory, is usually included among the latter. I understand that you have a
very different feeling about it.
Hofmann: Yes. When I discovered
lysergic acid amides in ololiuqui, I realized that LSD is really just a small chemical
modification of a very old sacred drug of Mexico. LSD belongs, therefore, by
its chemical structure and by its activity into the group of the magic plants
of Mesoamerica. It does not occur in nature as such, but it represents just a
small chemical variation of natural material. Therefore, it belongs to this
group as a chemical and also, of course, because of its effect and its
spiritual potential. The use of LSD in the drug scene can thus be seen as a
profanation of a sacred substance.
And this profanation is the reason that
LSD has not had beneficial effects in the drug scene. In many instances, it
actually produced terrifying and deleterious effects instead of beneficial
effects. because of misuse, because it was a profanation. It should have been
subjected to the same taboos and the same reverence the Indians had toward
these substances. If that approach had been transferred to LSD, LSD would never
have had such a bad reputation.
Grof: Let me move to another
subject. Can you tell us something about the attempts to isolate the active
alkaloids from Salvia divinorum?
Hofmann: Yes. When I was in Mexico, we
also encountered another plant that the Indians used ritually, like ololiuqui or like the mushrooms. It was
a member of the Salvia species which had not been botanically identified. After a long
trip into Sierra Mazateca, we finally found a curandera who conducted a ceremony with
this plant and we had the opportunity to have an experience with it. Gordon
Wasson, my wife, and myself ingested the juice of fresh leaves and experienced
some effects, but it was very mild. It was a clear-cut effect, but different
from the mushrooms.
Grof: Have you attempted the
isolation and chemical identification of the active principle from Salvia
divinorum?
Hofmann: I took the leaves and made
extracts from them by pressing out the juice. I took this extract to Basel to
my laboratory and wanted to chemically analyze it, but it was no longer active.
It seems that the active principle is very easily destroyed and the problem of
chemical analysis is not yet solved. But we were able to establish the
botanical identity of this plant. It was determined at the Botanical Department
at Harvard that it was a new species of Salvia and it got the name Salvia
divinorum. It
is a wrong name, bad Latin; it should be actually Salvia divinatorum. They do not know very good
Latin, these botanists. I was not very happy with the name because Salvia
divinorum
means “Salvia of the ghosts" whereas Salvia divinatorum, the correct name, means "Salvia of the
priests." But it is now in the botanical literature under the name Salvia
divinorum.
Grof: Was it Dr. Richard Schultes at
Harvard who identified the plant?
Hofmann: No, it was done in the same
Institute, but by two other botanists; they were the ones who gave it the name.
Grof: Was this the end of your
research of psychedelic substances? Have you been since interested in any other
psychedelic plants? And have you made any more attempts at identifying some of
their active principles?
Hofmann: No. No more.
Grof: Was this work interrupted
because of the political and administrative problems at Sandoz caused by the
unsupervised use? Do you think you would have otherwise continued in this work?
And would you have liked to carry on?
Hofmann: Yes, I have already said that
the abuse and misuse in the drug scene brought many troubles to our company.
Then came the legal restrictions from the health authorities in nearly all
countries and, of course, management of our company was no longer interested in
pursuing this avenue of research.
Grof: Did you yourself have any
plans or interests in this regard?
Hofmann: I followed the literature and
became interested at one point in the problems related to Amanita muscaria. I tried to get these
mushrooms and to isolate the active principles from them, but then it turned
out that Professor Reutz at the University of Zurich had already nearly solved
the problem. In addition, the reports about the psychedelic effects of these
mushrooms came from Siberian shamans. And the substances that had been isolated
from the Amanita
mushrooms which had been collected in our country have a narcotic effect but
not a hallucinogenic or psychedelic effect.
It was my suggestion, and I still
believe it, that the mushrooms grown in Siberia must be a different chemical
race. It is known that, depending on where the mushrooms are grown, they might
be botanically identical and not have the same chemical composition. I tried to
get the mushrooms from my Russian colleagues, but the contacts I had were very
unreliable. I got all kinds of evasive answers and excuses: “This year the
mushrooms are already finished; maybe next season, next year.” And the next
year the story repeated itself. I did not get the mushrooms and finally I
discarded the problem.
Grof: Was this interest inspired by
Gordon Wasson’s theory suggesting that the Amanita muscaria might have actually been the
Vedic scrament soma?
Hofmann: Yes, Gordon believed that
soma, the plant and sacrament
which plays such an important role in the Vedic scriptures, was actually
Amanita muscaria.
But the Zurich studies showed that the active principles of Amanita are narcotics and not
stimulants; they are not psychedelic substances. This was a major objection to
the theory. I believed that I could solve this problem by studying the Siberian
mushrooms but, as I said, it was not possible, because I could not get them.
Grof: There have been many
controversial reports about the effects of Amanita. Many people who have tried it
just got sick or experienced a trivial delirium. Other reported some variable
experiences, but certainly nothing as consistent as the effect of the Psilocybe mushrooms.
Hofmann: It is definitely something
different from the Mexican mushrooms, which have an unquestionable and
clear-cut psychedelic effect.
Grof: Gordon has also published an article and later a book on the
last meal of the Buddha, suggesting that Buddha's death, the parinirvana, occurred under the influence
of psychedelic mushrooms. This issue involves a linguistic problem. The Pali
canon describes that Buddha before his death feasted on pork. But Gordon Wasson
and his team found that the term used, literally “swine bits,” is actually a folk name for
a mushroom.
Hofmann: I cannot give you any informed judgment about this problem.
He may be right but, as you said, it is mainly a problem of semantics. The
description of Buddha’s death is great; it certainly could be a psychedelic
experience!
Grof: I would like to ask you now about another project, your work
with Gordon Wasson concerning the Mysteries of Eleusis. In your book The
Road to Eleusis,
you suggest the possibility that it was a psychedelic cult that actually
existed and practiced for almost 2000 years, since 1400 BC to 400 AD. And even
then people did not just lose interest in it, but it was terminated by an edict
of the Christian emperor Theodosius who prohibited and suppressed all pagan
ceremonies.
Hofmann: In professional circles of
Greek scholars, it is absolutely clear that the ancient Greeks used some
psychoactive substance in their cult. There exist many references to a sacred
beverage, kykeon,
that was administered to the initiates after preparations which took one week.
After the adepts got this potion,
they had, all together, powerful mystic experiences that they were not allowed
to talk about and describe exactly. I had worked about twenty years ago with
the Greek scholar, Professor Kerenyi, on this problem.
The interesting
question is: what were really the ingredients of this kykeon, this sacred potion? We had
studied many plants that Professor Kerenyi had suggested as possible
candidates, but they were not at all psychedelic. Then came Gordon Wasson with
his hypothesis; naturally, it involved mushrooms, because he saw mushrooms
everywhere. He asked me, if the men in Greek antiquity had the possibility to
prepare a psychedelic potion from ergot. He came to this idea, because the
Mysteries of Eleusis were founded by the Goddess Demeter and Demeter is the
goddess of grain and ergot (Mutterkorn). That gave him the idea that ergot
could be involved in the preparation of kykeon.
I had all the
materials at hand because, as part of our studies of ergot, we had collected
all the literature and also many samples of ergot from all around the world.
And this included the ergot that was growing in the Mediterranean basin, in
Greece, and so on. And one or two of these wild ergots growing on grasses can
also be found in rye fields or in barley fields. Rye did not exist in
antiquity, but barley did, and in barley fields you can find certain wild
ergots.
We had found and
analyzed all this ergot before Gordon asked me his question and in one species
growing on wild grass (Paspalum) we had found exactly he same components as in ololiuqui. Its main components were lysergic
acid amide, lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide, and also lysergic acid propanolamide
(ergonovine).
Therefore, I had no difficulty answering Gordon’s question: Man in antiquity
had the possibility to prepare a psychedelic potion from ergot. He had to just
collect the ergot, grind it, and put it into the kykeon.
Gordon, pursuing
the problem of kykeon, addressed not only me, as a chemist, but also a Greek scholar
Professor Carl Ruck at Harvard, who was a specialist on the role of medicinal
plants in Greek mythology and Greek history. Professor Ruck was able to direct
Gordon to some allusions in the Hymn to Demeter that provided support for his
hypothesis. These passages mentioned that, indeed, there was some kind of ergot
which was used to make this kykeon
psychedelic. And the three of us then co-authored a book, which explored
this evidence.
Grof: That was the book The Road
to Eleusis?
Hofmann: Yes, that was The Road to
Eleusis, which
was published here in the United States and also came out in some other
languages, such as Spanish and German.
Grof: You describe in this book that
you actually did a self-experiment with one of the natural ergot alkaloids to
test this hypothesis, to see if it was psychedelic. Was it ergonovine?
Hofmann: Yes, we had found active
principles in this ergot which grows in Greece. It contained lysergic acid
amide and hydroxyethylamide, about which it was already
known that they were psychedelic. But it was not known if ergonovine had some psychedelic effects
and I was interested to find out. Ergonovine had been used already for many
decades in obstetrics without any reports that it had been psychedelic. But the
dosage which is injected to women in childbirth, is only 0.5 mg and 0.25 mg. I
tested it up to 2 mg and, in that dosage, it had clearly psychedelic effects.
It had not been discovered earlier, because when it is administered, women are
just at the end of the process of delivery. They are thus in a state in which
they are not very good observers and, in addition, the dosage is too low to
produce psychedelic effects. Methergine and ergonovine also produce psychedelic
effects but in higher doses.
Grof: It is a very interesting
hypothesis, because it gives a plausible answer to the intriguing question:
What was it that was being offered at Eleusis? What could possibly have been so
powerful and interesting that it kept the attention of the ancient world for
almost two thousand years without interruption? And that it attracted so many
exceptional and illustrious people? Also the fact that it was such a strongly
guarded secret - the punishment for revealing the secret of the mysteries was
death - suggests that something quite extraordinary, something extremely
important was happening there.
Hofmann: It was a very important
spiritual center for nearly 2000 years. All we have to do is to look at all the
famous people, who for thousands of years in the world of antiquity, in the
Roman and Greek world, were introduced to the Mysteries of Eleusis. For us it
was a very interesting problem to find out what the initiates really got. There were two families in
Eleusis who knew the secret of the kykeon, two generations of families who conserved the
secret.
Grof: One often hears that the use
of psychedelic materials is alien to the Western culture, that it is something
that is practiced in pre-literate human groups, in “primitive” societies. The
enormous effect that the death/rebirth mysteries of various kinds must have on
the Greek culture, which is generally considered the cradle of European
civilization, must be the best kept secret in human history. Many of the great
figures of antiquity, such as philosophers Plato, Aristotle, and Epictetus,
playwright Euripides, military leader Alkibiades, Roman statesman and lawyer
Cicero, and others were initiates of these mysteries, whether it was the
Eleusinian variety or some other forms – the Dionysian rites, the mysteries of
Attis and Adonis, Mithraic or Korybantic mysteries, and the Orphic cult.
Hofmann: And it shows again that in old
times, and also in our time among the Indian tribes, psychedelic substances
were considered sacred and they were used with the right attitude and in a
ritual and spiritual context. And what a difference if we compare it with the
careless and irresponsible use of LSD in the streets and in the discotheques of
New York City and everywhere in the West. It is a tragic misunderstanding of
the nature and the meaning of these kinds of substances.
Grof: I would now like to move away
from these cultural and historical
explorations and go back to
chemistry. Although pharmacology is not your primary interest, I would like to
ask you a question about the mechanism of the action of LSD. There does not seem
to be unanimity as to why LSD is psychoactive and there are several competing
hypotheses about it. Do you have any ideas in this regard?
Hofmann: We have done some research
that is related to this question. We labeled LSD with radioactive carbon, C14. That makes it possible to
follow its metabolic fate in the organism. Strangely enough, we found, of
course in animals, that 90% of the LSD is excreted very quickly and only 10% of
it goes into the brain. And in the brain it goes into the hypothalamus and that
is where the emotional functions are located. This corresponds also to the fact
that it is primarily the emotional sphere that is stimulated by LSD. The
rational spheres are rather inhibited.
And, of course, it
is not LSD that produces these deep psychic changes. The action of LSD can be
understood only in terms of its interaction with the chemical processes in the
brain which underlie the psychic functions. Since LSD is a substance, its
action can be described only in terms of interaction with other substances and
with the structures in the brain, the receptors, and so on.
One of the popular
hypotheses was, for example, the serotonin hypothesis of the British researchers
Woolley and Shaw. It was found that LSD is a very specific and strong inhibitor
of serotonin
in some biological systems. And since serotonin plays a very important role in
the chemistry of neurophysiological functions in the brain, this was seen as
the mechanism underlying its psychological effects.
Since this
antagonism between LSD and serotonin was very strong and specific, our pharmacologist was
very interested to find out, if there are serotonin antagonists without
hallucinogenic effect. This was not only an interesting theoretical question,
but a matter of some practical interest, because serotonin is involved in the mechanism
of migraine headaches and in certain information processes. A serotonin antagonist without psychedelic
effects could be used as a medicament.
Grof: This was the reason why 2-brominated
LSD, a strong serotonin antagonist without psychedelic
effects, was so important?
Hofmann: We made all kinds of LSD
derivatives. Also among them was the 2-brominated LSD, which turned out to have
strong antiserotonin effect, but without any psychedelic effects. After that
finding, the serotonin hypothesis could not be sustained any more. Another problem was
that the serotonin
antagonism is not studied in the brain, but on peripheral biological
preparations.
Grof: And then there is, of course,
the complex question of the blood/brain barrier; which of the substances that
show peripheral antagonism are actually allowed to enter the brain.
Hofmann: Yes. And LSD also has effects
on other transmitters, such as dopamine and adrenaline and it is very complicated.
For this reason, LSD was a very useful and influential tool in brain research
and has remained that until this very day.
Grof: I am very interested in one
particular hypothesis concerning the effects of LSD. It was formulated by
Harold Abramson and his team in New York City. On the basis of some animal
experiments, particularly with the Siamese fighting fish (Betta splendens), they came to the conclusion
that the most relevant aspect of the LSD effect involves the enzymatic transfer
of oxygen on the subcellular level. For me this was interesting, because it
could account for the similarity between the LSD effects and the experiences
associated with the process of dying. And there might also be connections to
the effects of the holotropic breathwork that my wife Christina and I have
developed. Unfortunately, it seems that this research remained limited to that
one paper; I have not seen any additional supportive evidence for this
hypothesis.
Hofmann: And there was another
hypothesis, where the emphasis was, I believe, on the effect of LSD on the
degradation of adrenaline and noradrenaline leading to abnormal oxidation products (Hoffer
and Osmond’s adrenochrome and adrenolutine hypothesis). But none of this has been
confirmed and the question of the effective mechanisms of LSD is still open.
And, in addition, it is important to realize that there is an enormous leap
from chemistry to psychological experience. There are limits to what this basic
chemical background can tell us about consciousness.
Grof: If I understand you correctly,
you feel, very much like I do myself, that even if we could explain all the
biochemical and neurophysiological changes in the neurons, we are still
confronted with this quantum leap from biochemical and electrical processes to
consciousness that seems unbridgeable.
Hofmann: Yes, it is the basic problem
of reality. We can study various psychic functions and also the more primitive
sensory functions, such as seeing, hearing, and so on, which constitute our
image of our every day world. They have a material side and the psychic side.
And that is a gap which you cannot explain. We can follow the metabolism in the
brain, we can measure the biochemical and neurophysiological changes, electric
potentials, and so on. These are material and energetic processes. But matter
and electric current are quite a different thing, quite a different level, than
the psychic experience. Even our seeing and other sensory functions already
involve the same problem. We must realize that there is a gap which probably can
never be overcome or be explained. We can study material processes and various
processes at the energetic level, that is what we can do as natural scientists.
And then there comes something quite different, the psychic experience, which
remains a mystery.
Grof: There seem to be two
radically different approaches to the problem of brain/consciousness
relationship as it manifests in psychedelic sessions. The first one is the traditional scientific approach that
explains the spectrum of the LSD experience as release of information that is
stored in the repositories of our brain. It suggests that the entire process is
contained inside of our cranium and the experiences are created by combinations
and interactions of engrams that have accumulated in our memory banks in
this lifetime.
A radical
alternative to this monistic materialistic view was suggested by Aldous Huxley.
After some personal experiences with LSD and mescaline, he started seeing the
brain more like a “reducing valve,” that normally protects us against a vast
cosmic input of information, which would otherwise flood and overload our
everyday consciousness. In this view, the function of the brain is to reduce
all the available information and lock us into a limited experience of the
world. In this view, LSD frees us from this restriction and opens us to a much
larger experience.
Hofmann: I agree with this model of
Huxley’s that in psychedelic sessions the function of the brain is opened. In
general, we have limited capacity to transform all the stimuli which we receive
from the outer world in the form of optical, acoustic, and tactile stimuli, and
so on. We have a limited capacity to transfer this information so that it can
come into consciousness. Under the influence of psychedelic substances, the
valve is opened and an enormous input of outer stimuli can now come in and
stimulate our brain. This then gives rise to this overwhelming experience.
Grof: Have you actually personally
met Aldous Huxley?
Hofmann: Yes, I have met him two times
and we had very good, very important discussions. And he gave me his book Island, which had come out just
before he died. In it he describes an old culture on an island, which is trying
to make a synthesis between its own spiritual tradition and modern technology
brought in by an American. This culture used ritually something called moksha medicine and moksha was a mushroom that brought
enlightenment. Moksha was given only three times in the lifetime of each
individual. The first time it was during the initiation in a puberty rite, the
second time in the middle of life, and the third time at death, in the final
stage of life. And when Aldous gave me his book, he wrote: "To Dr. Albert
Hofmann, the original discoverer of the moksha medicine." I am very
proud to have this book, Island; it is a beautiful book.”
Grof: It is interesting that Aldous
Huxley actually used LSD to ease his transition at the time of his death.
Hofmann: Yes, after he had died, his
widow sent me a copy of a paper. When he was in the process of dying (he was
unable to talk because of his cancer of the tongue), he wrote on it: "0.1
milligrams of LSD, subcutaneously.” So his wife gave him the injection of the moksha medicine.
Grof: There is a beautiful description of this situation in her book
which is called This Timeless Moment.
Hofmann: Yes, This Timeless Moment by Laura Huxley.
Grof: I would like to ask you now
something very personal. You must have been asked this question a number of
times before, I am sure. You have had during your lifetime quite a few
psychedelic experiences, some of which you described to us today. It began with
the LSD experiences associated with the discovery of LSD, then the experiences
during the work on the isolation of the active principles from the magic mushrooms
and ololiuqui,
the experience in the mushroom ritual with Maria Sabina, the sessions you
described in LSD, My Problem Child, and some others. What influence have all these
experiences has on you, on your way of being in the world, on your values, on
your personal philosophy, on your scientific world view?
Hofmann: They have changed my life,
insofar as they provided me with a new concept about what reality is. Reality
became for me a problem after my experience with LSD. Before, I had believed
there was only one reality, the reality of everyday life. Just one true reality
and the rest was imagination and was not real. But under the influence of LSD I
entered into realities which were as real and even more real than the one of
everyday. And I thought about the nature of reality and I got some deeper
insights.
I analyzed the mechanisms involved in
the production of the normal world view that we call the "everyday
reality." What are the factors that constitute it? What is inside and what
is outside? What comes from the outside in and what is just inside. And I use
for this process the metaphor of the sender and the receiver. The productive sender is the
outer world, the external reality including our own body. And the receiver is
our deep self, the conscious ego, which then transforms the outer stimuli into
a psychological experience.
It was very helpful
for me to see what is really, objectively, outside; something that you cannot
change, something that is the same for everybody. And what is produced by me,
homemade, what is myself, that which I can change. What is my spiritual inside
that can be changed. And this possibility to change reality, which exists in
everyone, represents the real
freedom of every human individual. He has an enormous possibility to change his
world view. It helped me enormously in my life to realize what really exists on
the outside and what is homemade by me.
Grof: You have a tremendous
awareness and sensitivity in regard to ecological issues, for example, the
industrial pollution of water and air, the destruction of nature, the dying of
the European forests, and so on. Would you attribute this to your psychedelic
sessions, in which you experienced oneness with nature and the
interconnectedness of creation? Do you think that these experiences somehow
opened you to this greater ecological awareness, to a sharper sense of what we
are doing to nature?
Hofmann: Yes, through my LSD experience
and my new picture of reality, I became aware of the wonder of creation, the
magnificence of nature and of the animal and plant kingdom. I became very
sensitive to what will happen to all this and all of us. I have published and
lectured about the main environmental problems we have in Europe and at home in
this regard.
Grof: One often hears that in Europe
one out of every three trees is dying. What do you think is happening to nature
in Europe?
Hofmann: It is primarily the damage to
the green particles of plants where photosynthesis takes place, in the small
holes where the air has to pass through. People believe that the plants nourish
themselves from the soil, but that is not true. They are nourished from the air
and carbon dioxide is the main product used in this process. Only the water and
minerals come from the earth. In order to filter out all the carbon dioxide
that it needs as building material, the plant has to let pass through its
leaves an enormous amount of air, because we have only 0.03% of carbon dioxide
in the air.
In comparison with
the plants, we use the air only as a source of oxygen that we need for
oxidizing the substances we receive as food. The plants need about thousand
times more air than we do. That explains why the plants die first. And it is
mainly the conifers that suffer, because their needles, where the photosynthesis
takes place, remain in place for four to six years. Other plants have new
leaves every year and the damaged leaves are put away, are disposed of. The
conifers die first, but eventually, if this process continues, even the trees
which change leaves follow.
Grof: The sun is the major source of
energy supporting life. Do you feel
there is a real danger that by interfering with photosynthesis, we might
actually cut ourselves off from the supply of vital energy indispensable for
continuation of life on this planet?
Hofmann: Yes, because only the green
womb of Mother Earth is able to receive and utilize the stream of solar energy
which comes to earth in the form of light and to transform it in chemical
energy. This then makes it possible for the plants to build organic substances
and pass them to other organisms. And if the receivers, the green plants, are
damaged, this magic stream will be interrupted and life on earth will collapse
and disappear. This is why I am active in the ecological field, trying to
stimulate politicians to do something against this fundamental danger.
Grof: The discovery of LSD has been
such an important part of your life and you have also personally experienced
what positive impact this substance can have on us if it is properly used. I
would like to ask you: what was your reaction to what happened in the 1960s in
the United States.
Hofmann: Well, I was very sorry, really
sorry. As I said, I would have never suspected LSD could be misused in such a
way. Now I have the feeling that the situation has improved, because you never
read in the newspapers about accidents with LSD any more, as it happened in the
1960s practically every day.
People who use LSD today know how to use it. Therefore, I hope that the health
authorities will get the insight that LSD, if it is used properly, is not a
dangerous drug. We actually should not refer to it as drug; this word has a
very bad connotation. We should use another name. Psychedelic substances, if
they are used in proper ways, are very helpful for mankind.
Grof: You wrote a book entitled LSD,
My Problem Child.
I heard you say, at the conference, that you hope you might see the day when
your problem child will become a desired child again.
Hofmann: I myself will not probably
see this day, but it will definitely happen sometime in the future, I am sure.
The truth will finally come out and the truth is: If LSD is used in the right
way, it is a very important and very useful agent. LSD is no more playing a bad
role in the drug scene and psychiatrists are again trying to submit their
proposals for research with this substance to the health authorities. I hope
that LSD will again become available in the normal way, for the medical
profession. Then it could play the role it really should, a beneficial role.
Grof: Do you have a vision for the
future concerning this, an idea how you would like LSD to be used?
Hofmann: We have a kind of model for it
in Eleusis and also in the so-called primitive societies where psychedelic
substances are used. LSD should be treated as a sacred drug and receive
corresponding preparation, preparation of quite a different kind than other
psychotropic agents. It is one kind of thing if you have a pain-relieving
substance or some euphoriant and having an agent that engages the very essence
of human beings, their consciousness. Our very essence is Absolute
Consciousness; without an I, without the consciousness of every individual,
nothing really exists. And this very center, this core of the human being is
influenced by these kind of substances. And therefore, excuse me for repeating
myself, these are sacred substances. Because, what is sacred if not the
consciousness of the human being, and something which affects (activates)
(engages) it must be handled with reverence and with extreme caution.
Grof: Many of us who have
experienced psychedelics feel very much, like you do, that they are sacred
tools and that, if they are properly used, they open spiritual awareness. They also engender ecological
sensitivity, reverence for life, and capacity for peaceful cooperation with
other people and other species. And, I think, in the kind of world we have
today, transformation of humanity in this direction might well be our only real
hope for survival. I believe that it is essential for planetary future to
develop tools that can change the consciousness which has created the crisis
that we are in.
Hofmann: That certainly would be a
major step in the right direction. We need a new concept of reality and a new
set of values for things to change in a positive direction. And LSD could help
to generate such a new concept.
Grof: I would like to thank you for
giving up your time of leisure on this beautiful day and for coming here to be
with us and share your life experiences. I really appreciate it very much and,
I am sure, so does everyone else in this room.
Hofmann: Thank you for inviting me to
Esalen. I really enjoy this very beautiful landscape. It is so wonderful to be
here and to experience the atmosphere in this institute with old friends and
colleagues. It has been a great experience for me. Thank you, too.